Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Just M on March 19, 2012 at 2:35pm

William Muir - died April 1904

Elizabeth Dyer Muir - died 8 August 1907

William "John" - died died between 1907 & 1944

Laurence Josiah (Joseph)  - died between 1907 & 1944

Josephine (R. Devereaux ) - died between 1907 & 1944

Hannah Mariah ( Ida) - died between 1907 & 1944

Esther Moffat - died 31 December 1912

Mary Jane (Mrs Hunter) - died between 1911 & 1944

Thomas Henry Muir - died 15 January 1944

Fredrick "George" - died October 31 1957

Elizabeth "Lillian" died after 1944

Only six more deaths and obits to find to maybe narrow Hannah down

Who can help?

Permalink Reply by Just M on March 25, 2012 at 9:00am

I wonder if anyone has searched for divorce records for Hannah. We keep hearing she never divorced and just remarried over and over again but are you guys sure?

One would think there should be 3 divorces - Ist one grounds could be abandonment. 2nd and 3rd should also show up. Would be nice to know what happened.

This site explains how to obtain the records in Ontario http://www.archives.gov.on.ca/english/guides/pdf/rg_210_divorce_fil...

In York County http://www.archives.gov.on.ca/english/guides/pdf/rg_211_divorce_yor...

Permalink Reply by Donna on October 8, 2012 at 12:47pm

I've attached a link below for William Henry Armstrong who died Mar 23, 1934 I think he is your William. I have also attached his obit. 

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JK6G-P7S

I may be going to the archives sometime this week if I do I can look up the cert of death for William if you like?

Attachments:

• William Henry Armstrong Obit.pdf, 727 KB

Permalink Reply by Just M on April 10, 2013 at 12:09pm

Still nothing new on Hannah firefox? Can anyone find what we have missed?

Permalink Reply by Donna on April 11, 2013 at 10:04am

Did you notice that on the marriage certificate for William and Hannah she shows her name as Armstrong when her father's surname was Muir? She also says that she is a Widow so she was married prior to marrying William to another man named Armstrong. Did you check to see if she might have been married to one of Williams family members? You said she was married at least 4 times so we know that two of those men surnames were Armstrong and we believe one was a Powell.  If this is repeat info sorry I have read over the notes hoping that I could help search the Toronto papers for obits. 

Permalink Reply by Just M on April 11, 2013 at 11:32am

Donna As far as we know she died an Armstrong - there was no relationship between her 1st husband an Armstrong and the last.

This is the timeline we have put together on her Might help to have it a second place

1876- Hannah Maria Muir born 29 June 1876 to William Muir and Elizabeth Dyer (discussion on here parents is at that link)

Birth Record # 021393 Click to view Name: Hannah Maria Muir Date of Birth: 29 Jun 1876 Gender: Female Birth County: Muskoka District Father's name: William Muir Mother's name: Elisabeth Dyer Archives of Ontario Microfilm:

1881 Census- She is with her parents in the Muskoka district of Ontario - aged 4 years Click to view Name: Mariah Muir Gender: Female Age: 4 Birth Year: 1877 Birthplace: Ontario Religion: Methodist Church of Canada Nationality: Scotch (Scotish) Province: Ontario District Number: 131 District: Muskoka Sub-District Number: H

Household Members: Name Age William Muir 55 Elizabeth Muir 44 William John Muir 20 Laurence Josiah Muir 16 Fredrick George Muir 14 Thomas Henry Muir 12 Mary Jane Muir 19 Josephine Muir 7 Mariah Muir 4 Elizabeth Lillien Muir 8/12

1889 - Sister Mary Jane marries Edward James Hunter 13 September 1889 View Marriage Record # 010957

1891 -Hannah is still with parents ages 14 yrs Click to View Name: Hannah M Mure (Muir) Gender: Female Marital Status: Single Age: 14 Birth Year: abt 1877 Birthplace: Ontario Relation to Head of House: Daughter Religion: Methodist French Canadian: No Father's Birth Place: Scotland Mother's Birth Place: England Province: Ontario District Number: 100 District: Ontario North Subdistrict: Ryde

Household Members: Name Age William Mure 66 Elizabeth Mure 53 Joseph Mure 26 Fredrick Mure 23 Thomas H Mure 22 Josephine Mure 18 Hannah M Mure 14 Elizabeth L Mure 10

1895- According to the 1901 census her son Roy Armstrong was born on 29 March 1895 but I did not find a birth record for him. Can anyone find his birth record?

1896- Hannah Mariah Muir married John Thomas Armstrong son of William Armstrong and Margaret Perry on 28 March 1896 at the age of 18 years stating that her father is William Muir and Elizabeth Muir and that she was born in Ontario. This would make her born 1878. Click To View certificate # 011654

Name: Hannah Mariah Muir Birth Place: Ontario Age: 18 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878 Father Name: William Muir Mother Name: Elizabeth Muir Spouse Name: Thomas Armstrong Spouse's Age: 21 Spouse Birth Place: Ontario Spouse Father Name: William Armstrong Spouse Mother Name: Margret Armstrong Marriage Date: 28 Mar 1896 Marriage County or District: Simcoe

1900 -Her husband John Thomas in usa 15 May 1900 according to his Declaration of Intention. Follow him in the discussion HERE

1901- she is living with her brother George as head of house. Her father William is listed as being 72 and her mother Elizabeth is 60. Her son Roy Armstrong is also in the house. She states she was born 29 June 1876. View Census Here Name: Hannah Moor Gender: Female Marital Status: Single Age: 24 Birth Day & Month: 29 June Birth Year: 1876 Birthplace: Ontario Relation to Head of House: Sister Racial or Tribal Origin: Irish Nationality: Canadia (Canadian) Religion: Methodist Province: Ontario District: Simcoe (North/Nord) District Number: 114 Sub-District: Vespra Sub-District Number: H-5

Name: Roy Armstrong Gender: Male Marital Status: Single Age: 5 Birth Day & Month: 29 Mar Birth Year: 1895 Birthplace: Ontario Racial or Tribal Origin: Irish

1902 or 1903 -Her husband John Thomas Armstrong marries again to a Mary Lacourt and by 1903 has a family. (presumed as I have not found a marriage record yet)  Was he legally free to marry or was he a bigamist?

1902 - Her brother George Frederick Muir married Mary Jane Martin on 26 Nov 1902. View marriage recordI did not find the page that contains witnesses - can somone else please

1903 - Ada Hannah Armstrong married Joseph Patrick Powell on 27 July 1903 at the age of 22 stating that her father was William Armstrong and her mother was Elizabeth Dyer and that she was born in Barrie Ontario. This would make her born 1881. If this is herwhy the name change from Hannah Mariah to Ada Hannah? Why has she listed her father as William Armstrong instead of William Muir? You know that her 1st husband is alive so when were they divorced?

View marriage record # 1719 Page 1 Page 2

Name: Ada Hannah Armstrong Birth Place: Canada Age: 22 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1881 Father Name: William Armstrong Mother Name: Elizabeth Dyer Spouse Name: Joseph Patrick Powell Spouse's Age: 23 Spouse Birth Place: England Spouse Father Name: Thomas P Powell Spouse Mother Name: Anne Larkin Marriage Date: 27 Jul 1903 Marriage County or District: York

1904 - Her sister Esther marries Alexander Moffat on 5 April 1904 View Marriage Record. I did not find the page with witnesses - can someone else direct me to it please

1904 - Her father William Muir passes away in April. The obit says he is survived by his widow and five children. His obit is HERE.

1906 -Her sister Lillian marries Robert Prince in Barrie on 22 August 1906 according to an article in the Barrie Examiner. I did not find a marraige record.

1906 - Her brother Thomas Henry marries Anna May Bain on 26 December 1906. Who is Minnie Muir who witnessed the marriage? View Marriage Record # 017906

1907- Hannah's mother, Elizabeth Muir, passes away 8 August 1907 in Barrie, Simcoe County. She was a widow and lived at 4 Florence St. Surviving children are listed as: Fred, Mrs Moffat (this would be Esther) both who were living in town, Harry of Minising, Mrs Hunter (this would be Mary Jane), Mrs Powell (this is Hannah) Mrs Prince ( this is Lillian) all of Toronto; R. Devereaux of town (this must be Josephine),  John out west and Joseph who at an unknown location. Her obit is HERE. She is buried in Union Cemetery - has anyone contacted the cemetery yet?

1908- Ida Muir married Howard C. Lobdell on 14 January 1908 at the age of 23 stating that her father was Wm Muir and her mother Elizabeth Dyer. And that she was born in Ottawa This would make her born in 1885, nine years after her birth. View marriage certificate # 005601

Name: Ida Muir Birth Place: Ottawa, Ontario Age: 23 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1885 Father Name: Wm Muir Mother Name: Elizabeth Dyer Spouse Name: Howard C Lobdell Spouse's Age: 23 Spouse Birth Place: Connecticut Spouse Father Name: Nathan Lobdell Spouse Mother Name: Mary Dean Marriage Date: 14 Jan 1908 Marriage County or District: Carleton

1911- Hannah, Ida, Ada or whatever name she may have been using is not found in census by me and neither is her son Roy

1911- Brother George married Emma nee Weavers Barnes 23 November 1911 in Toronto. Witnesses Robert and Lillian Peince View Marriage Record # 023557

1912 -Sister Esther Moffat dies 31 December 1912 in Toronto. View Death record # 001106

Ontario, Canada, Deaths, 1869-1938 and Deaths Overseas, 1939-1947 Name: Esther Moffatt Death Date: 31 Dec 1912 Death County or District: York Age: 55 Gender: Female Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857 Birth Location: Canada. I have not found her obit. Can anyone else

We need this obit

1914 -Her son Roy enlists 7 September 1914 and stated his next of kin is his uncle G F Muir. Stating he was born in Minesing, Ontario on 29 Mar 1894. View Front , View Back. Do you have the entire army records or just front and back pages found online

1916 -  Brother George married on 24 May 1916 to Elizabeth Hart in Hamilton View Marriage Record # 024511

1919- Her son Roy returns after being a POW for 4 years. His home is listed as 482 Montrose Ave. This from March 4, 1919 Toronto Star. 482 was the home of his aunt Lillian Prince and husband Robert

1919- Her son Roy marries 14 May 1919 to Lillian Harvey View Marriage record # 002557 Name: Roy Armstrong Birth Place: Ontario Age: 23 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1896 Father Name: John Armstrong Mother Name: Ida Muir Spouse Name: Lillian Harvey Spouse's Age: 22 Spouse Birth Place: England Spouse Father Name: William Harvey Spouse Mother Name: Florence Taylor Marriage Date: 14 May 1919 Marriage County or District: York

1922 - 1923 -Son Roy and wife Lillan arrives in the USA

1923 -Grandson Alan Leroy born November 1923 in Miami, Florida (son of Roy and Lillian)

1924- Hannah Armstrong married William Henry Armstrong 3 September 1924 in Mimico, Ontario at the age of 44 stating that her father was Wm Muir and her mother Elizabeth Dyer. And that she was born in Toronto. This would make her born in 1880. View marriage record # 023174

Name: Hannah Armstrong Birth Place: Toronto, Ontario Age: 44 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880 Father Name: William Muir Mother Name: Elizabeth Dyer Spouse Name: William Henry Armstrong Spouse's Age: 43 Spouse Birth Place: Cty of Sligo Ireland Spouse Father Name: Richard Armstrong Spouse Mother Name: Margaret Mccleary Marriage Date: 3 Sep 1924 Marriage County or District: York Registration district: York

1926 -According to a photograph someone in the family has she visited / was in Atlantic City, NJ. PLEASE family mambers could you share this photo with us?

1926 - William and Fern (nee Tudor) Mather had a son James William Armstrong born May 29, 1926 in Swansea, Ontario, Canada passed away 25 Dec 1985 Barrie, Ontario. This according to a tree on ancestry done by a grandaughter ( cjmuriell ) of William Henry Armstrong. Bear in mind this tree is not documented online

1927- William Henry Armstrong remarried on 15 January 1927 to Fern (nee Tudor) Mather in Hamilton.  He is listed as widower so some time between 1926 and 1927 she may have died. Cant find any records about her death. View Marriage Record # 024609

1929 -Grandson Warren born October 1929 in Miami, Florida (son of Roy and Lillian)

1934 -in March William Henry Armstrong is said to have passed away in Toronto (I have not found his death record)

1944 -on 15 January 1944 in Painswick Thomas Henry Muir passed away. His obit states he is survived by 4 sons and 5 daughters plus his brother George and sister Lillian in Toronto. This helps greatly in narrowing down the time frame for the deaths of the rest of the siblings as we can now presume the rest all passed away between 1907 and 1944 View Obit Here from the Barrie Examiner, 27 Jan 1944, p. 10.

1957 - Brother George Muir dies in Toronto. No mention of siblings in his obit HERE taken from Toronto Star 1 November 1957. Buried Prospect Cemetery, Toronto. Funeral home was Brown Brothers. His children are listed as William, Fred, Lorraine & Nicholas.

1967- 31 December 1967 her son Roy passes away in Zephyer Hills, Pasco County, Florida

1970 -Howard Lobdell passes away (if this is the same one) 25 October 1970 in Siren, WI

Social Security Death Index Name: Howard Lobdell SSN: 387-12-8299 Last Residence: 54872 Siren, Burnett, Wisconsin, United States of America Born: 6 Jan 1885 Died: Oct 1970 State (Year) SSN issued: Wisconsin

Permalink Reply by Just M on April 11, 2013 at 11:55am

This marriage I had a wee bit of doubt with as she lists father as William Armstrong yet mother as Elizabeth Dyer  - could be just that person writing it out presumed Armstrong. She also states she is S - Presume Spintser is what that means but she was not a spinster she had been married and had a child.

1903 - Ada Hannah Armstrong married Joseph Patrick Powell on 27 July 1903 at the age of 22 stating that her father was William Armstrong and her mother was Elizabeth Dyer and that she was born in Barrie Ontario. This would make her born 1881. If this is herwhy the name change from Hannah Mariah to Ada Hannah? Why has she listed her father as William Armstrong instead of William Muir? You know that her 1st husband is alive so when were they divorced?

View marriage record # 1719 Page 1 Page 2

In her mother's obit, she passed away 8 August 1907,  she is listed as Mrs Powell http://api.ning.com/files/IDOcnrxplNIjejEq2IuyG1QofPo5IKjryRDmRe2w3... so one has to presume that this marriage is correct.

Permalink Reply by Just M on April 11, 2013 at 12:02pm

Then there is this one that I doubt, but the parents are correct. Age way off. Again she states S - for I presume spinster.

1908- Ida Muir married Howard C. Lobdell on 14 January 1908 at the age of 23 stating that her father was Wm Muir and her mother Elizabeth Dyer. And that she was born in Ottawa This would make her born in 1885, nine years after her birth. View marriage certificate # 005601

Permalink Reply by Just M on April 11, 2013 at 12:10pm

We really need to find the 1911 census but what name do we look for.  1921 when released might hopefully supply an answer.

I have not  found her crossing the border, nor have we found her son Roy and wife Lillian crossing border.

No clue if died in Canada or USA - presume Toronto but that is assumption only.

Presume she died 1926 because:

1926 -According to a photograph someone in the family has she visited / was in Atlantic City, NJ. PLEASE family members could you share this photo with us?

1926 - William and Fern (nee Tudor) Mather had a son James William Armstrong born May 29, 1926 in Swansea, Ontario, Canada passed away 25 Dec 1985 Barrie, Ontario. This according to a tree on ancestry done by a grandaughter ( cjmuriell ) of William Henry Armstrong. Bear in mind this tree is not documented online

1927- William Henry Armstrong remarried on 15 January 1927 to Fern (nee Tudor) Mather in Hamilton.  He is listed as widower so some time between 1926 and 1927 she may have died. Cant find any records about her death. View Marriage Record # 024609

Permalink Reply by Janet on April 11, 2013 at 8:34pm

You did an awesome job of organizing all this info, Just M. I am the one who has the photo of Hannah in Atlantic City. I am not trying to keep it private, it is just that I have to get it onto my computer to send it, and I have not had much time recently to do much of anything.

Someone raised a question about Hannah's name. My understanding is that she was called Ida as a nick name. I wonder if that was in part because she had an older sister named Hannah who died just a few months before our Hannah was born? Also, I wonder if there are more than one couple named William Muir and Elizabeth Dyer who had a daughter named Hannah. These were not uncommon names in that time period.

A question was raised about divorce. I wonder if people just did not divorce but kind of moved on, or never married in the first place? Roy did not divorce Lillian. Where did he learn that from? Did these people just not take things seriously? George Frederick Muir stated on I believe, a marriage registration that he was born on the ocean. At first I thought it must have been when his parents had crossed the ocean, but they were married in Innisfil before he was born. this is info I found on ancestry.
Are there records from midwives? I would bet they would have a lot of information on who was born, when, if they documented their births. Some of John Thomas Armstrongs siblings have birthday registrations, some don't. I have never found William Armstrongs death registration, or His wife, Margaret Perry Knaggs.

Thank you for all your work that you have done in this family line. My father died young, at age 58 and that was 30 years ago. He could have answered a lot of these questions. I do remember my grandmother, Lillian Armstrong saying that Ida (Hannah) was 16 when she had Roy and did not want to have to raise her son (the story was that her husband was killed in a lumbering accident when Roy was a baby which we now know is not true, that his father, John went on to marry and have 4 more children) that Roy was raised by his aunt Lillian Prince. I know that aunt Lillian was still alive in the early 1950 s as she sent my parents a wedding present. My mother said that she remembers my dad use to get letters for awhile until we moved to a different town. Perhaps the letters ended because she had died.
Thanks again.

Permalink Reply by Just M on April 11, 2013 at 9:37pm

So if Hannah was 16 when she had Roy then Roy musta been born in 1892 / 1893 and not 1895. Maybe we need to look at all illigit births in those years.

Mid wife or not he would need to be registered - although some were not for one reason or another. 

Permalink Reply by Just M on April 14, 2013 at 4:07pm

Does anyone have a sub to the Toronto paper that could look up this

 Esther Moffat dies 31 December 1912 in Toronto. View Death record # 001106

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