Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by David11000 on January 24, 2010 at 2:08pm

I've found him in all censuses 1841-71 but in each case his birthplace is shown simply as Scotland.

William Murrays were two a penny in Scotland, so you'd probably do a lot better to look laterally at the brother Adam Goudie Murray, which is rather more distinctive name. If you check the IGI at www.familysearch.org you'll find a number of entries for an Adam Goldie Murray born 1786 in Dumfries and an 1812 marriage, which may be the same person as your Goudie. The problem is these are all member submissions which are unreliable, so need checking against a parish register. But as I know nothing about Scottish resources I would post a request on the general Scotland group asking how you can check these entries. If you can confirm the brother you stand a better chance of finding William, although there seems to be a 20 year age gap.

Turning to the Withers, what's your evidence that Mary was from Newcastle under Lyme? Does the marriage entry state that she was of the parish of Newcastle under Lyme, or "of this parish"?

In each census 1851-61-71 she gives her birthplace as West Bromwich, which is 40 miles from Newcastle under Lyme. According to the IGI there were two Mary Withers baptised at West Bromwich, 16 July 1815 dau of Joseph and Sarah, and 18 May 1817 dau of Benjamin and Elizabeth (this seems to be the same date as the parish register entry you have). I think your Mary is more likely to be one or other of these. Was Josiah/Isaiah one of the witnesses to Mary's marriage? There's an Isaiah born 1817 in West Bromwich, but parents were Joseph and Martha. There were a lot of Withers baptised in West Bromwich at around this time, and at least one family was non-conformist just to complicate matters further.

The Josiah you found in 1851 is a transcription error on Ancestry. It's actually Isaiah, which fits with the 1817 baptism.

Can you attach a copy of the parish register baptism entry that you have?

David

Just found Benjamin in 1851, where his address is Lyne, West Bromwich. Lyne/Lyme?

Permalink Reply by Judie on January 24, 2010 at 4:41pm

Hi David, Thanks for the great information.

I will put a note up on the Scotland site right away. Mary Wither's parish birth record is really hard to read - I looked for towns in England with Lyne in them. oops got the wrong one obviously! Lyne, West Bromwich makes a lot more sense. The fathers name on the record looks like it could have been BenJ which could be Benjamin. There must have been two Withers families in West Bromwich - the safe makers (not related to me) and the Benjamin Withers family (related to me).

Did you find Benjamin in 1851 census? The only Benjamin I can find is the son of Isaiah

I also received William and Mary's marriage record from the All Saints parish but it has little more on it other than the witnesses Isaiah Withers and Sarah Marsh.


thanks again
Judie

Permalink Reply by David11000 on January 25, 2010 at 1:00am

Hi Judie

I think it's an abbreviation for Benjamin, and he was a chimney sweeper. The date is the baptism date by the way, not Mary's birth. But how have you established that this was your Mary, as opposed to the 16 July 1815 baptism? I don't think it's the right Mary.

In the censuses her age is successively given as 35-45-55 implying a birth between Apr 1815 and March 1816. It looks to me more likely that she was the July 1815 Mary whose age would fit perfectly.

In fact I think that Mary daughter of Benjamin married George Ball at Handsworth (next door to West Bromwich) on 9 March 1835. In censuses from 1851 onwards she is shown as born at West Bromwich and is aged 33-43-53-62-74, which fits with her being the daughter of Benjamin. In 1861 there was also a William Talbot, lodger, living in the household. Benjamin's wife was a Talbot.

Your Mary's parents were Joseph Withers and Sarah Marsh who married at West Bromwich All Saints on 5 Sept 1809. You can find Mary's siblings by doing a parent search on the IGI - just fill in Joseph Withers sarah, and Staffordshire in the appropriate boxes. You can easily pick out their West Bromwich children

The big question is whether Joseph of Joseph and Sarah is the same Joseph as of Joseph and Martha parents of Isaiah. I can't see a burial of Sarah nor a marriage to Martha, so it's highly speculative!

David

Permalink Reply by David11000 on January 25, 2010 at 4:15am

Hi Judie

Shout if you need full census information, on either of the Marys. Forgot to mention it in my previous post, and not sure if you have access to censuses

David

PS Just noticed the other witness on the marriage to William Murray - Sarah MARSH - was she connected to who I think was Mary's mother?

Permalink Reply by David11000 on January 25, 2010 at 4:38am

Forgot to mention also that Benjamin Withers 58 was living in West Bromwich in 1851 birthplace Darlaston, indexed on Ancestry as such. Also in his household was William Talbot 12 born Birmingham. Is this the same William Talbot 20 born Birmingham living with the Balls in 1861? More evidence that Mary daughter of Benjamin married George Ball, not William Murray.

Perhaps you're connected to the safe makers rather than the chimney sweeps after all!

David

Permalink Reply by Judie on January 25, 2010 at 11:52am

Hmmm this is turning into a real mystery! I may have to go to England to solve it. Thanks for all of your notes David, it is really appreciated. I feel like I am back at square one again - oh well - another note off to the archives in Bromwich I guess. I thought maybe Benjamin might be a brother of Joseph but I cann't find a connection.

Judie

Permalink Reply by David11000 on January 25, 2010 at 12:32pm

It might be quicker and a lot cheaper to order and view the microfilm of West Bromwich and Darlaston near Wednesbury parish registers from your nearest LDS Family History Centre.

What's mysterious? It looks pretty straightforward to me, at least so far as the two Mary's goes. But the previous generation, the two Josephs and Benjamin looks a bit messy.

David