Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Just M on December 15, 2010 at 6:23pm

What information does the marriage record for Florence and John give ?

Permalink Reply by Danielle MacKenzie on December 15, 2010 at 11:13pm

Hi Just M,

Thanks for your interest.  This is the information found on the marriage certificate.

St Helens Church - Parish of Hemsworth - February.17th, 1897 -

John Clamp (22yrs) father Joseph Clamp (Miner) -

Florence Evelyn Saggers (19yrs) father Frederick Arthur Saggers (Theatrical profession) -

Witnesses - James Williams & Kate Ward.

Thanks, Danielle

Permalink Reply by David11000 on December 16, 2010 at 2:49am

www.freebmd.org.uk shows a birth registration of Ruby May A Clamp in Neath in the June quarter 1902 (not 1901). In 1911 Ruby Clamp age 9 born in Wales was living in Pontefract.

 

In 1911 living in Newmarket was

John Clamp 43 b Normanton

Florence Clamp 31

EWF Clamp (male) 11 b Plymouth

Hazel Clamp 1

 

I don’t have a subscription to the 1911 census so the above is gleaned from the free index at www.1911census/co.uk To get full details you need to buy some credits.

 

There’s a birth registration of Ernest William F Clamp in Plymouth in the June quarter 1899.

 

And the reason I couldn’t find them in the England 1901 census became obvious when I found Ruby’s birth registration – they were living in Wales!

 

1901

11 Rees St., Ystradyfodwg, Glamorgan

John Clamp head marr 26 Musician (theatrical) b Normanton

Florence Evelyn Clamp wife 24 Actress (theatrical) b Middle Essex (sic) London

Ernest William Frederick Clamp son 1 b Plymouth

 

That confirms I have the right families in 1901 and 1911

 

So where was Florence in 1891 and 1881? And where was her father Frederick Arthur Saggers? I cannot find a trace of either of them, nor of a birth of Florence. And I can't find Hazel either! This is beginning to bug me. Was it all an act?

 

David – still looking!

Permalink Reply by David11000 on December 16, 2010 at 3:41am

Have you got the birth certificates of all her children? What is Florence's maiden name on them?

I see that you know a lot more about the family than you've posted here, including all the information I gave you above.

Permalink Reply by David11000 on December 16, 2010 at 4:05am

I see from other boards that Hazel was born in Scotland, which is why I can't find her, and that she emigrated to Canada with her mother and stepfather. It makes it so much easier for us to help you if you tell us what you know.

If Florence emigrated in 1925 I doubt if there's anyone in Yorkshire who would remember her, particularly as you say (on another board) that she lived in Gloucs from 1911 onwards.

Permalink Reply by David11000 on December 16, 2010 at 6:20am

When she married William F S Eddels as Florence E Clancy in 1919 did it show her as Clancy formerly Saggers, and her father as Frederick Arthur Saggers?

Permalink Reply by Danielle MacKenzie on December 16, 2010 at 9:27am

Hi David,

I do have all of the birth certificates for Florence's children, and her maiden name was Saggers.  The strange thing is they went by the last name Clamp until John died in 1918 and then Florence and her son Ernest who remained in England changed their last name to Clancy.  I realize this is a long shot to find out any info on Florence, but to be honest I'm desperate.  I've found quite a bit of info on Florence and John after they got married, but nothing on florence prior to that.  She lists her fathers name as Frederick Arthur Saggers (living) on her first marriage certificate, but when she marries the second time in 1919 she lists her fathers name as Frederick Wallace (deceased).  She has been a difficult relative to track to say the least and I just thought I'd give this forum a try to see if anyone recognizes the Saggers family name and remembers the family living in Yorkshire prior to John and florences marriage.  They would have had to have met somehow so I was hoping that Florence and her father may have lived for a time in Yorkshire.  I really appreciate all of your interest and help and if there are any other questions I can answer I would be happy to.

Cheers, Danielle

Permalink Reply by Danielle MacKenzie on December 16, 2010 at 9:28am

P.S.

Sorry it took me so long to reply, but I'm in Canada so the time change comes into play.

Permalink Reply by Danielle MacKenzie on December 16, 2010 at 11:32am

Hi David,

I'm not sure if she lived in Gloucestershire from 1911 onwards, that's just a guess.  However, I do know that Florence and John lived in Chipping Steps in Tetbury in 1918 when he died, and prior to his death they owned the Empire Picture Palace in Tetbury.  I have found a newspaper article after he died stating that he and Florence had not lived there for a long time, but had made lots of friends in the short time they had made their home in Tetbury.  This leads me to believe that they had not been there since 1911.  Therefore,  I'm not sure where they were between 1911 and 1918, but more importantly I've been unable to even locate Florence at all prior to 1897 and I would love to be able to find out for  my Nana where her mothers family came from etc.

Permalink Reply by David11000 on December 16, 2010 at 12:04pm

I'm really struggling with Florence. None of the names she used link back to a birth in the GRO register with Christian names of Florence Evelyn. I suppose what it needs is to go through births 1875-1882 for all Florence Evelyns, and cross check them against the 1891 census, to see if any of the fathers were in the theatre. Even though her surname changed, at least she seems to have kept the first names constant, so perhaps they're real (but I wouldn't put money on it!)

Your Ancestry tree shows her photo which you date at a bit before she married, working in Drury Lane. Might that be where she met John, if he was fiddling in the orchestra pit? Doesn't explain why they married in Yorks though.

I wonder if she might have been illegitimate hence the various names for her father.

The marriage cert for a widow would usually say Florence Evelyn Clamp formerly Saggers - was there any mention at all of Saggers, or just Clancy?

I'll work on her over the next few days - but I leave for England on Sunday, so I'm a bit pressed for time at the moment

David

Permalink Reply by Danielle MacKenzie on December 16, 2010 at 1:16pm

Hi David,

There is no mention of Saggers or Clamp on the second marriage certificate just Clancy and she lists her fathers name as Frederick Wallace (actor).  Originally my grandmother was under the impression that her mothers maiden name was Neville because her stage name was Daisy Neville and Hazel actually named one of her sons Neville as well.  Unfortunately, I've been unable to find any marriages between Nevilles and Saggers, so yet another brick wall.  I appreciate your help and interest, but totally understand that you're busy.  Hope you have a good trip.

Take care, Danielle